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December 11, 2012 … 12:14 p.m.

December 11, 2012

I was doing my practice of self-flagellation (reading some liberal blogs) and noticed one leftist in particular had asked the question,   “Are you (right scratching_headwingers) also upset because a professional health practitioner such as a neuro-surgeon makes more money and has a more secure lifestyle than a hamburger flipper at a fast fooder?”  This question was supposed to be (I’m just guessing here) a comparison between the wages and benefits of government and private sector workers. I don’t usually leave a link to a liberal site to protect my visitors from entering the bizarre world of liberalism. But because I can’t get a grip on the real point of Mr. Liming’s post, I’m leaving a link HERE so some of my visitors can read it and help me out with it because it left my head spinning.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyway, I suspect the post was in reference to the fact that most Americans feel government workers are generally paid better than private sector workers, and the liberal blogger doesn’t not agree with that.  I found this piece at Inverstors.com called Americans believe public workers better paid and more secure, By Andrew Malcolm.

Here’s what it says … (excerpts)

In the 1,420 days since he took the oath of office, the federal government  has daily hired on average 101 new employees. Every day. Seven days a week. All  202 weeks. That makes 143,000 more federal workers than when Obama talked  forever on that cold day in January of 2009.

Under Obama the total federal workforce has surpassed two million for the first time since the first Clinton term, now sitting  about the 2.2 ,million level.

Now comes a new poll revealing that Americans know what’s going on.  A majority of Americans believes government workers make more money than  private sector workers, according to the new Rasmussen Reports poll. Sixty-one percent of private  sector workers believe that.

“The federal workforce has become an elite island of secure and high-paid  workers, separated from the ocean of average American workers competing in the  global economy,” according to a report this year by the Cato Institute.

That report found the average civilian federal government worker  collected just under $84,000 a year in taxpayer money, about $32,000  more than the average private sector worker. That’s a total  federal worker package of about $236 billion a year.

(emphasis mine)

the rest of the article HERE

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70 Comments leave one →
  1. AFVet permalink
    December 11, 2012 1:29 pm

    I’m glad you posted this article Steve.
    I ran across that this morning and had no idea that was going on.
    The average salary range of government vs. private sector is also startling.
    This Country is getting very close to the tipping point and the heathen in office is determined to put US past it.

    • December 11, 2012 2:09 pm

      What would you say if the government suddenly decided that it was unprofitable to continue paying military pensions once the discharge has been tended? It might fall under the old right wing saw that says that there is no profit in paying people who are no longer working. How about that? Would that be an acceptable government position to take? I mean after all military are just another section of government employment, are they not?

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 2:31 pm

      Cut military pensions ? Absolutely not !
      Cut the pensions for the parasites in the government ?
      Absolutely !
      The majority of them are millionaires anyway.
      Very few military retirees are millionaires.
      The military veterans have to live under the laws the politicians create when they come back to the private sector.
      John, Obama continually ridicules the rich.
      Establish term limits and let the lawmakers live under the laws that they created to control the private sector when their term has expired.
      No pensions for them whatsoever.
      Also, they have to use Obamacare,…none of this, well, we are exempt bullcrap.

    • December 11, 2012 3:56 pm

      No work, no pay! Period! It is the Right Wing standard! No pay for anyone to sit on their rear ends doing nothing!

    • December 11, 2012 3:25 pm

      John can you name any other Government Employees other then Police or Fire who willing Volunteer to put their lives on the line in defense of this Country and its Constitution? If for no other reason that is why all those who serve and protect should never have their pensions denied.

    • December 11, 2012 3:57 pm

      No work, no pay – - it is the right wing standard of self reliance and self sufficiency – - – circumstances count for nothing – - no one who sits around doing nothing should be paid for doing nothing! Of course that is not MY view… I am a democrat and I believe in pensions and decent living wages.

    • December 11, 2012 4:07 pm

      John, you did not answer my question but then again you did say you were a Democrat and they rarely do answer questions as they are usually devoid of any facts whatsoever to back up their comments.

  2. December 11, 2012 1:49 pm

    When one adds in the benefits of the majority of gov’t workers it is way over the top for gov’t public gov’t workers. I speak from experience and cannot say more here.

    Just this: I have been a temp. employee for a state agency for three years (No benefits and treated like a third class citizen, grateful for the part time work!) and have seen how the evil union works to protect the workers, and at heavy cost and decreasing benefits to those who NEED the services they come in for. The waste and bureaucracy is quite tragic and my stint at this job is prayerfully coming to and end, one way or another on my own terms. One one door shuts, the Lord will open others. The SEIU is a every evil union.

    I read John’s article and need to mull it over some more. What do you expect from John and he is entitled to his opinion but he is way off on this one, way off.

    • December 11, 2012 2:25 pm

      I belonged to a union once and it was good for me, good for my family, my employer worked us 11 hours a day for 7 days a week overtime – - the employer was making record profits – - America was humming – - -all that is gone now – - – Trickle Down economics didn’t do much trickling down except down someone’s leg perhaps.

      There was a time not so awfully long ago (1960s and 70s) when big employers made exponential profits from union labor and union labor enjoyed decent standards of living from their employers – - it was a win win situation for everyone!

      It took the period from 2000 to 2008 to put an end to all that.

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 2:47 pm

      John, did you ever wear a military uniform for this Country ?

    • December 11, 2012 3:56 pm

      Twice for a total of 7 years and 3 months.

    • December 11, 2012 3:28 pm

      John I believe those exorbitant wages is what led to so many of our jobs going overseas my friend. America can’t afford Unions period. Government regulations now protect American workers and the need for Unions has gone by way of the dinosaurs.

    • December 11, 2012 4:00 pm

      So pay American workers Chinese wages – - -that is what they want to do and that is what they will end up doing – - – but the rich aren’t gonna feel any different, are they? Keep the workers down; keep them depressed – - keep them on starvation rations: that is the way of the far right!

    • December 11, 2012 4:03 pm

      We need to get rid of those regulations as well – - too much regulation as it is . . . no more safety laws…nothing that restricts the freedom of business to operate as they please… get rid of those regulations… they stifle economic growth…. back to the 1800s! Back to the sweatshops! Back to when Right Wing Corporate Kings ruled the industrial world with their locked firetraps. That is where they want to take us isn’t it?

    • December 11, 2012 4:10 pm

      There was no mention of Chinese wages John. Just pay Union and Government workers the same scale of pay as the private sector. Wouldn’t you agree John that that would be fair?

    • December 11, 2012 4:11 pm

      Oh John, Sweat Shops of the 1800′s??? Really? C’mon John, step up to the plate and have an honest conversation my friend.

    • December 11, 2012 4:23 pm

      Can’t be done! I’ve tried! When the Right thinks they are right there is no reasoning with them.

  3. December 11, 2012 1:55 pm

    Wow! I feel totally honored that Cry and Howl has actually featured one of my posts! I mean it! Thanks from the bottom of my incorrigible Libtard heart.

    The point of most of my rants about what I see as some of the right wing economic manipulations and machinations is not all that complex really:

    I suspect the end game for some of them is not all that complex.

    I think the end game in the larger picture is to simply create what some experts refer to as a “Cheap Labor Economy” where there are only two classes of citizens: (1) The corporatocracy that is served by the working masses and (2) The working masses who are more or less enslaved to the corporatocracy at whatever pittance can be paid without inciting a general strike or something.

    I think some of the rightie corporate types must believe it is cheaper to transform the American Economy into something on the order of the Asian Economy than to go to all the expense of moving American jobs over seas.

    It is good business even if might be a little discomforting to some whose lives could be affected by it all.

    I believe the “Cheap Labor Economy” concept works best where the bottom line outstrips all patriotic or moral considerations in the equation.

    But I also believe it is in the best interest of the corporatocracy to paint their economic practices as “patriotic” and I think a lot of them are doing a really good job at that.

    I think many of them have spent the past 40 years trying to “mentally condition” target audiences to their message and I think they have been somewhat effective.

    I think it would probably be better if more folks could actually qualify for one of those government jobs than to simply complain about the wage rates and benefits they pay.

    I will wager (just for the fun of it) that anyone who has gone through college and/or otherwise gained the necessary skills and qualifications are more than happy to have their “government” job – - – whadda-ya wanna bet?

    But Jeez!

    You actually featured me!

    I feel warm and fuzzy about that.

    God bless you for your kind heart and your generous nature.

  4. December 11, 2012 2:00 pm

    Steve, I’m glad I’m not the only conservative out there who is a regular reader of liberal blogs and news sources. I find that it causes me to question my assumptions, do a lot of rigorous research and fact-checking (using as many primary sources as I can find), and generally keeps me from going nuts in the echo chamber :)

    That said, I live in an area (Northern Virginia) with a VERY high concentratin of federal employees, and I can tell you that one of the huge flashpoints many of those of us who live and work in this town have with the federal employees isn’t the cash salarly portion of their compensation, it’s the insane amount of leave and holiday time they’re granted. Most jobs around here offer two weeks vacation time and a week of sick leave, and the non-retail employers give Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year’s off — some of the more generous ones also throw in Memorial Day and Labor Day. That’s it. Most of those employers also offer group health plans, and kick in a couple of hundred bucks a month towards the premiums. For example, my husband’s employer pays $200 a month towards our $1,478 monthly health insurance premium. I proofread the last sentence twice, and it contains no typographical errors. We are among the fortunate ones who have three plans from which to choose, and we chose that one because our cost for the higher coverage option would have been around $1,750 per month; the lower coverage option would have bankrupted us if we ever had to meet the deductible, and the $100 monthly premium savings just did not justify taking that kind of a risk.

    Please pardon my rant. The point is that, as a group, federal employees have access to a set of benefits, including retirement after 30 years’ service and non-merit-related salary increase schedules, that people who work in the private sector can’t fathom. I’ve worked in both sectors, myself, and while I do understand that government employees in highly technical occupations do often make less in the way of straight salary, the generosity of the beneifts package more than offsets that. It rankles. I would rather pay the most qualified people more money in salary and cut back on the benefits, particularly those benefits that incur long-term costs to the taxpayer, and cut back on the paid leave. And no, I do not think that the average private sector employer should simply match the federal government’s largesse. I think the feds need to outlaw federal employee collective bargaining (see, they have this wonderful form of recourse called “elections”) and bring both salaries and benefits packages for those employees needed to handle functions that should properly belong to the federal government (as opposed to devolving to states, localities, or individuals) in line with what private sector employeesin those fields would make.

    And I hope that all made sense! Peace be with you — Kelly

  5. December 11, 2012 2:16 pm

    That will probably be an awfully good set of arguments until such time as the right has been successful in destroying every form of organized labor and begun to revert the standard of living for all working Americans back to the 1950s and before – - – and no one can argue that this is not their intent – — that “Cheap Labor Economy” I think so many of them desire to establish as the norm here in America gets closer with each passing day and even some on the right whose lives will be destroyed by it cannot see it coming – - – after 40 years of indoctrination.

    • December 11, 2012 4:45 pm

      I don’t think that is their intent John. Actually I think it is the opposite. I think they intend for this Government to begin to live within its means much like you and I do my friend. Good bad or indifferent that is what the conversation is really about in America today.

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 5:51 pm

      Very nicely said my Friend.
      Will it fall on fertile ground ?
      John has an antagonistic element to his comments.
      It’s fun to poke him once in awhile. :)

  6. December 11, 2012 3:21 pm

    The Unions might have served a good purpose at one time , now they just collect huge dues and support the left wing agenda with those dues , Hey John , do you remember the early 70′s that I do , we were in another big recession then . Gas prices were climbing , gas shortages, inflation wasn’t too bad till Jimmy Carter tried to save us . That worked out well didn’t it . The mandate for the Federal government should not be to do good but to not do evil . Oh never mind , lets all get government jobs , I wonder who will pay us then huh ? By the way , if your retired you’d better be ready to go back to work , the price of survival is going up , but the value of life is going down . Maybe you’re one of the rich fat cats who won’t have to worry when Obama care is fully implemented . Good luck John …..

    • December 11, 2012 4:09 pm

      You wanna hear a secret?

      When I worked in the union there were one helluva lotta Republicans working right along side of me and I never heard too many of them complaining about the exorbitant wages they were receiving.

    • December 11, 2012 4:25 pm

      Hi john , Are you really trying to convince me that you believe the Unions with their Nazi Brown shirt tactics are helping anyone but themselves these days ? I worked in a union also , I earned 2.40 hr. the min. wage was around 1.65 , I don’t remember what dues were , but they weren’t cheap . I didn’t have a choice and I didn’t like then , (That was a long time ago) I don’t like the idea of it today . There was a steel company in California , Kaiser steel . The owner shut the co. down after touring incognito and seeing union workers , drunk , playing cards and so on . He couldn’t fire them because of the union . When the co. closed , the union pension fund evaporated and people with almost twenty years of working and paying dues got zero dollars from the union . Exorbitant wages indeed . The Unions to today are different from the private sector alright .

    • December 11, 2012 4:29 pm

      So what kind of pension funds are the private sector providing for their slave labor employees these days? I will bet it is generous indeed!

    • December 11, 2012 4:41 pm

      Slave labor, you really shouldn’t go there . It is the policies of the current administration driving down wages , out bidding the private sector with entitlement programs . Why bust your butt for 50k when the government will pay 40k for doing nothing . The government will be the only employer soon if the tax and spend , spend program continues . Haven’t you heard , the government is after all the retirement funds , 401 k’s and Ira’s . I guess we’ll see what real generosity is when there are no real private sector jobs . Maybe you and I could get jobs as busboys at the White House , I wonder if the pay would include meals . Hmmm.

    • December 11, 2012 4:44 pm

      That’s where we are all going to end up anyway if righties get their “Cheap Labor Economy” firmly ensconced… so why not? I think meals might be included – - – but we might have to get a dumpster diving license from the right wing food administration in order to qualify.

    • December 11, 2012 4:49 pm

      Maybe the Pres. wouldn’t charge too much for the license , until then Bon apatite

    • December 11, 2012 4:53 pm

      I think that would be “appetit”

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 6:27 pm

      Republicans need jobs too, and even if they do not support the unions and the mandatory dues, they have to support their family.
      Communists are attempting to take over the Country.
      Right to work states are gaining in number.
      Could there be some common sense coming into play ?

    • December 11, 2012 10:20 pm

      It is called the decline of a civilization – - like Rome!

    • December 11, 2012 4:10 pm

      Yes I am as a matter of fact! I worked hard and succeeded in life. Do you have something against success?

    • December 11, 2012 4:15 pm

      I don’t but your President does John. You need to start redistributing your wealth right now. Perhaps you could pay extra at Tax time?

    • December 11, 2012 4:24 pm

      I have learned a lesson from Rightie – - – and the lesson is called “Cayman Islands.”

    • December 11, 2012 4:30 pm

      Congratulations , Cheers to your success , did you do the work or did the Union bosses do it for you ? Just wondering . I am happy for your success , may your success continue for many years …

    • December 11, 2012 4:37 pm

      That is very kind of you – - – the union bosses provided the financial foundation through the employment at the plant(s) – - the rest was pure entrepreneurship and a lot of good luckj.

    • December 11, 2012 4:43 pm

      The comment responses are getting out of sinc , so Have a Good day John ,

    • December 11, 2012 4:45 pm

      that would be “synch” I believe.

    • December 11, 2012 4:51 pm

      I’ve seen it both ways , I do believe . It’s been fun , till next time .

    • December 11, 2012 4:56 pm

      I agree! It HAS been fun! Thanks!

    • December 11, 2012 4:47 pm

      Cayman Islands!!!!!!!!!!! John, don’t you believe in helping the poor?

    • December 11, 2012 4:51 pm

      Of course I believe in helping the poor as long as it is not the 47% because if it is that is not my worry.

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 4:56 pm

      OK John, what if Obama goes after your money in the Cayman Islands ?
      After all that nasty Romney has stored some of his money off-shore.
      Along with the Kennedy’s and virtually every other liberal that have done so.

      Your diatribe is elementary to the conservatives that can see through the efforts you make to support your position.
      You are a decent diversion.
      At least you don’t use Foul Language and appear to have a degree of intelligence.

    • December 11, 2012 5:11 pm

      Re: “. . .that can see through the efforts you make to support your position.. . .

      I have made a lot of efforts to support positions in my lifetime. Some of them have paid off and some have not. Yawwnnn.

      Conservative diatribes just happen to be elementary to efforts they make to support their positions also – - but for some strange reason, their efforts did not pay off at the voting booth this time around, did it?

      Thanks for the honor of being classified as a favorite diversion. I think I feel honored by that distinction.

      Yes, I have a base level of minimal intelligence – - very low on the scale – - Mensa material you know – - elemental – - banal – - not too much above a measured 190 – - – very lacking in even the barest minimum of intellectual capacity – - – but when I go to the bank, I don’t much care about all that!

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 6:10 pm

      The very fact that you are cognizant is inspiring to me.

  7. December 11, 2012 4:17 pm

    Unlike many on the right fringe, when I do use “facts” they are facts that the rest of the civilized world recognizes and not the contrived, manufactured facts so often utilized by those on the intransigent right extremes.

    To answer as requested:

    Re:” . . .John can you name any other Government Employees other then Police or Fire who willing Volunteer to put their lives on the line in defense of this
    Country and its Constitution?

    Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force, Special Forces, Intelligence Operatives, Ambassadors, Special government-employed contractors, and the list goes on! There are many civil servants in harm’s way every day of their lives – - – attaches, administrative support personnel in foreign missions – - – does that suffice?

  8. December 11, 2012 4:22 pm

    samiam60 permalink
    December 11, 2012 4:10 pm

    There was no mention of Chinese wages John. Just pay Union and Government
    workers the same scale of pay as the private sector. Wouldn’t you agree John that that would be fair?

    It might be fair but it is not something that a Liberal dares to suggest in the presence of a conservative because I have been chewed out many times by righties for suggesting that everyone be made the same.

    So I guess this is another case where what is good for the right is only good as long as it is convenient but when the left wants the same thing it suddenly becomes evil.

    • December 11, 2012 4:33 pm

      When you say “Everyone be made the same” are you saying everyone should be raised up to Union and Government Wages or vice – versa? If you are leaning towards everyone making Union/Gov. wages then how on earth will we compete in a global economy? The fact is John, America simply can no longer afford the high costs of Unions and Government Pensions. ie look at California.

    • December 11, 2012 4:42 pm

      Let’s return to the days when one could barter a few hours of labor for a pound of coffee or a loaf of bread. That might solve it.

      We could always hunt our own game again couldn’t we?

      I think the government should set a minimum wage of 50 cents a day and let it go at that – - no bargaining – - no arguments – - – just make everyone who works take the 50 cents a day and go with it!

    • December 11, 2012 4:52 pm

      John, are you dodging Another Question?

    • December 11, 2012 5:05 pm

      I’m still hearing Crickets John

    • December 11, 2012 4:50 pm

      John, are you being Sarcastic? How Chris Mathews of you………sigh

    • December 11, 2012 4:56 pm

      Chris Matthews? Gee! Thanks! I watch him and Ed Schultz every night – - that is so nice of you!

    • December 11, 2012 4:57 pm

      Why am I not surprised? Lol…..

  9. December 11, 2012 4:49 pm

    I am so glad that Steve did not quit the blog. I have had more fun today than a barrel of hairs on a frog.

    Glad you are back buddy!

    • December 11, 2012 4:56 pm

      You have a good day John and it has been fun. I always appreciate a good debate with a Civil Liberal.

    • AFVet permalink
      December 11, 2012 5:10 pm

      Yeah, John,…we have too. :)

    • December 11, 2012 7:31 pm

      thank you John. I have the most awesome readers. you included.

      http://cryandhowl.com

    • AFVet permalink
      December 12, 2012 2:01 pm

      BTW John, your new avatar is great.
      You look just like my mother in law without her wig !
      An amazing resemblance, and she is a rabid Obama supporter too ! :|

    • December 12, 2012 2:02 pm

      :)

  10. December 11, 2012 10:39 pm

    One last poke here at John,

    You think ‘righties’ are the only ones with Cayman island slush accounts? Better do your research you so dearly love to blather on about. I ‘could’ furnish you much on this but will take your tactic and let the crickets chirp away. Do your homework and get back to us righties, evil conservatives whatever you call us.

    A fine rant and ramble it was and John, you have some unanswered questions from one of my contributors at PC. Do at least come back and attempt to answer Andrea

  11. December 12, 2012 6:17 am

    12-12-12 0230 am PST
    Hmmm… I don’t have a headache, but there’s one trying to be born. At least four people I was wanting to address in this discussion. Forget that now.
    Mr. Liming served his country. He was able to see his efforts suitably rewarded.
    Not so in my life: though if I wasn’t sucessful, I was supposed to have the same opportunity to do so, not blame the system.
    Let me guess Mr. Liming is 68 or so. I was six in 1958; the shift in America from “Buy American” to the 70′s, was a total reversal of the values I was taught.
    Saving to own what you bought, not the “buy now, pay later” credit card mentality. Remember lay-away plans? However, I have to side with Mr. Liming on one issue: INCOME.

    I was a bellman in 1973. The Arabs had just grabbed us by the cajones -oil- and my “sumptuous” salary of $1.65 per hr (what was min wage then?) and the few tips I received was barely enough for basic necessities. It took me three weeks wages to be able to pay the rent!
    There was no “discretional income” to put aside to take care of the stuff life throws at you. The hotel chain I worked for did offer group health coverage, and I could earn vacation time, but on my pay, I couldn’t afford to do anything but stay home. Those with College degrees were the ones who found viable income jobs, and could improve their station in life if they were good stewards of their income.
    I had managed to -while hitchiking- keep a perfect work attendance while going full time to a Jr college (and maintaining a 3.6 grade average ), but was at the “end of my tether” by this time. I never got the last few credits to get an Associate Degree that might have made the difference.
    About this time, American brand icons had found it more expedient to ship parts to Japan, have them assembled, then shipped back for consumption here; which changed the entire paradigm from a producing country to a nation of consumers. H ! Now we don’t even make toothpicks! They’re made in (omitted) China! I invite all to view or re-view a video I put together:
    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-36fuF84Ldk?feature=player_embedded&w=640&h=360%5D

    I AM a conservative; always will be. Instead of self reliance, personal responsibility, spending within your income, (not “charging it”) and making your own way, we have become a nation who thinks the “world owes them a living”, and fights for a share from the Government tit. We learned nothing from history, and we are reaping what we’ve sown.
    God have mercy on us!

  12. December 12, 2012 8:49 am

    BTW – I was willing to give Mr. Liming this feedback on your pg, and my URL, but the transfer insisted on my name – I put my pseudonym, and the entry appeared, but was bounced back to the pg requiring a name after entering the two word code (to prove I wasn’t a “bot”) I reserve my right to privacy; If it isn’t a bother, Steve, you give him the URL. Thanks, “X”

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